Author Topic: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?  (Read 607 times)

DelombardR

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Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« on: November 05, 2018, 08:53:07 PM »
I have an 1885 Columbia Expert with a 56" front wheel that was re-worked decades ago and made unfit to ride. The rest of the Expert is fine and I've ridden it over 3,500 miles before tire wires started breaking.
Does anyone have a usable 56" Expert front wheel they would be willing to let go? Maybe part of an Expert with a questionable backbone or fork. This wheel could be part of a swap to make a display bicycle from unrideable parts.

Richard

DelombardR

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 09:38:11 PM »
This high wheel may be sold in the future and I am not going to hide it's 'history'.
After a year and a half of installing the tire, the front tire broke while riding slowly on a trail.
New wire put on by a different person.  That lasted five months or so and broke while riding easy on a flat residential street.
New wire put on by yet another person. That lasted 366 days and broke while riding along a fairly level park road.
Nothing spectacular occurred leading up to any of these breaks. 
The wheel was re-built long before I bought it and it was not ridden for 20? years and sat in a house. The single wall rim is an original (I assume, but perhaps not with this particular machine?) and new spokes were 'reversed' by a head in the hub and spoke nipples at the rim.


« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 11:08:41 PM by DelombardR »

DelombardR

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2018, 09:15:29 PM »
Yeah, I know. I later removed that line.
My thoughts were discounted by some others.

With the re-done spoking arrangement the spoke ends are not fixed at the hub, but simply pass through with a blunt end.  The other end uses a spoke nipple at the rim. I thought with the spoke able to go inward when the rubber is passing the pavement, allowing the rim to flex.

Several people offered evidence to that not being the problem.

By the way, I am open to suggestions or theories as to why this 56" 1885 Expert (with re-built wheel) would break three front wheel tire wires. Three different wire installers, three different locations, three different sources of wire, two different rubber (new rubber with #2 wire), two different states (IL(1) & OH (2)), but only one rider (Oh no!).



« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 10:29:45 PM by DelombardR »

Craig Allen

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 06:34:48 AM »
#2 wire???  It is just a mystery how he managed to push a #2 wire (.257 diameter) through a hole in the rubber that measures about .193 diameter for a length of 175 inches!

DelombardR

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 04:59:00 PM »
Sorry Craig. I phrased that wrong trying to be succinct.
I meant for the second tire installation, new rubber was used.

Yes, we would have had to use a hydraulic jack to get the wire through!

Kurt S.

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 10:03:30 PM »
I hope this can shed some light on the wire issue,  notice in the chart, for example,  the difference in a low carbon - 10 gauge wire @ a breaking point of 1101 Lbs, verses, a high carbon wire - high tensile 10 gauge which has a breaking point of 2860 Lbs.  Roughly 2 1/2 times stronger - same gauge.

If the well meaning folks whom installed the wire, simply bought the wire from their local hardware store, they probably ended up with low carbon wire.  Get some from a supplier that can provide the specs of it being actual "High Tensile Wire". 

Then again, that 9 gauge wire from Home depot does the trick, it's just a bugger to push it through, even with a wire lubricant. 

mike cates

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2018, 09:33:05 AM »
With any wire stated, isn't  the breaking yield point (tensile strength) affected when silver braze soldering the overlapped ends together since the wires are now annealed (softened) at this area?
Mike Cates, CA.

Craig Allen

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2018, 10:41:53 AM »
It would stand to reason some of the hardness will get pulled out with heat application. Using high tensile wire would be more suited by simply twisting the ends together so no soldering or brazing is needed. While a smaller gauge wire can be used with high tensile wire, I don't see any advantage since smaller wire can start cutting into the tire rubber which  results in a loose tire. I've been a believer in using heavier wire like 9 gauge ever since Gary Woodward explained to me what happened on the Bicentennial tour from Dearborn to Philly in '76. People had tires breaking off until Gary fixed them with 9 gauge.

Kurt S.

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2018, 09:28:24 PM »
I thought I’d chime in again because with either the 9 & 10 gauge there is an issue of the joint.  If you try to just simply overlap the wires and braze it, or if a twist method is used, it is too big for the center of the rubber tire.  This sets up unnecessary stress in the rubber as that type of joint is pushing through the rubber tire on every turn. 


The wire that I purchased, I assume has already been annealed, so brazing it properly shouldn’t be an issue.  Annealing takes out the stresses in the wire, and brazing at around 850F and then quenching it in water will toughen the materials (tempering), which is what I want at the joint.  If anything, I want some pliability/toughness at the brazed joint. 

  This is different than heating it up to cherry red, which can create stresses, which can then create snapped wires.

  Now I use a 9 or 10 gauge, high tensile wire on my bicycle and took extra measures to insure an excellent joint.  While in the tiring machine, and just before brazing, I trimmed off the wires to overlap about 5/8”. Then with a small grinder and cut off wheel, I bevel cut the wires so that each cut of the two wires would oppose the other, creating cylindrical wedge(s).  When the two wire cut wedges are laid onto each other, they form a cylindrical round, very close to the original diameter of the wire. 

  The joint I then braze together and quench in water.

  Just how I do it, when it comes to those wires, I like to pack my own parachute. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 09:37:32 PM by Kurt S. »

DelombardR

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2018, 10:46:50 AM »
To correct a misconception I may have uttered:
Each of the three breaks have broken at the side of the wire joint.
Each joint held solid with no cracks or ripping.

The different locations were geographic.  :-)

As for any of these wires 'catching' inside the rubber due to 'wide' or sharp wire joints, I do not recall rubber separating on any of these tires over the years. I did experience that with my Zimovcak repro bike (my tiring job long ago) a couple times.

Craig Allen

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2018, 12:42:11 PM »
Dick, From what you are saying here, I'm suspecting the problem you were having with these breaks is possibly the wires were heated up too much or the brazing or soldering was inadequate.

DelombardR

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2018, 01:38:56 PM »
Well, three different installers who have done many tire jobs before (and after) with no such results (as far as I know).

Chronology from memory.

1980s or '90s?  A high wheel bicycle was assembled for display indoors with verbal instructions something like "This bike should not be ridden."
OCTOBER 2013 I purchased the Expert via eBay near Bloomington, IN
EARLY-2014: Installed new rubber with Randy O in preparation for riding to Waukesha, WI meet
MID-2016: Rode at Elmhurst meet and wire broke during trail ride after public demo. A fully loaded adult tandem ran over the wheel and pretzeled it. Bill D took the wheel, trued it, and put new rubber on it.
OCTOBER 2016: While riding into Cleveland, the front wire broke while riding down a level city street. No damage to bike.
WINTER 2016/17: I grooved the inside of the rubber to straddle the spoke nipple heads inside the single-wall rim.
MARCH 2017: Bill S and I installed the grooved rubber.
MARCH 2018: Front wire broke during local club ride in Cleveland Metroparks.  No damage to bike.
EARLY-APRIL 2018: A for sale sign appeared on the bike.
APRIL 2018: 57" Lt Roadster purchased and no broken wires
------

Mileage ridden by year:
2014 - 1350 miles
2015 - 1050 miles
2016 - 420 miles before break, 200 before second break
2017 - 740 miles
2018 - 35 miles before third break


« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 06:16:20 PM by DelombardR »

Greg Barron

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2018, 11:40:39 PM »
 Hi Dick,
  Am I correct in saying that all 3 wire jobs were solder joints? Wanna try my twist method? I don't like heat on my wires at all, not to disparage those that like it. I just feel that if it was good enough to do when the bikes were made and it still works now, why change. Not to say I don't know of at least a couple wires that broke using my method but I know that when those break it's because the wire is tensioned too much and as it folds, it gets thinner and can snap. But having done literally several thousands of tires with this method, I can say it works pretty well. And I have a neat video showing how to install it. No heat required.

Greg
 

DelombardR

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Re: Is there a 56" Expert wheel available?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 05:51:45 PM »
Thus starts the age-old tiring method discussion.  Yes, all three were silver soldered or brazed by three different people.
I've long thought that all the methods in use now have their successes - otherwise no-one would be using them.

What I do not know is why this particular wheel sheds the tire as it does. Some aspect of it is (probably) flexing the wire during use. I can imagine that would happen with the twist method also.

This bicycle would make a great wall-hanging in a home or restaurant or ......  Or, with a re-built wheel, a fine rider. I sure enjoyed riding it!